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Post by mizunoman on Dec 11, 2012 1:23:27 GMT -5
Ok. It is a can of worms, I know, but since the CR's new Open Division seeding tourney is this coming weekend (15th), let's discuss it...
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Post by bearfootvolleyball on Dec 11, 2012 10:37:09 GMT -5
I think the idea was rolled out way to late. It should have been discussed last season. If you want the "best" teams showing up for tournaments have the regional championships and the points mean something. Personally, I think the Regional Championships should be a big deal with all divisions and teams under one roof like a festival atmosphere.
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Post by nobody on Dec 11, 2012 16:46:17 GMT -5
I think the Open Division penalizes the smaller clubs that compete in the upper part of what used to be Platinum. These are the clubs that use the region as part of their schedule. Now instead of playing 2 tournaments a month, they only play one. I know they have the option of choosing to play Club instead and some of them will but it will effect "top to bottom" competition of both Open and the top division of Club.
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Post by volleyballdad on Dec 12, 2012 14:28:15 GMT -5
I think the concept to have the top teams compete in a pod is not much different the the "Platinum" division. The only difference is the limited schedule and number of teams per pod. I agree something needs to change from the 5 team pools we've had for the past couple of seasons which makes for extremely long days and nights. Many of these teams play limited region schedule anyway as they choose to play in MAPL's and other highly competitive multi-day tournaments. The biggest problem I see is the timing of the new formats. This should have been launched in the summer so clubs could prepare for the new formats. Another problem may be the competitive level in the club divisions with the East & West. If some of the top teams play Open and the others play club then the Gold division may not be competitive top to bottom because of the East/West split.
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Post by mizunoman on Dec 15, 2012 22:46:26 GMT -5
From what I understand, the task force charged with exploring options for the possible "Open" division did their homework but did not have the time nor the resources to come up with a complete, comprehensive plan for this season. In an effort to effect change as soon as possible I heard that the "powers that be" wanted to fit this in if only at even a trial-basis level. The goal, I believe, was for the region tournaments to appear more inviting to some of our "National" teams who compete almost exclusively out-of-region. Unfortunately, it looks like some of those teams still may not have taken the "bait," but if the idea works then perhaps more teams/clubs will jump in next season...BTW...how was the tournament today?
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Post by nobody on Dec 17, 2012 10:10:49 GMT -5
The Open seeding tournament had the same teams that were in platinum last year. I really don't see the advantages in playing Open. Even though our teams did very well I hope our teams choose to play club in order to get in 2 extra regional tournaments. We will just wait and try to face the big clubs in MAPL or the near by festival tournaments. Our club doesn't go to the board meetings so we really don't have a reason to complain but I really don't understand the reasoning behind this (catering to a couple of clubs) or changing the formats last year to 'Logan's Run." In prior seasons, the only teams staying late were the ones in the finals (Who would complain about that?). Last year the finals would some times be finished and there were still teams staying late fighting it out for 6th or 7th.
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Post by coach4life on Dec 17, 2012 14:28:43 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on that, nobody. Take them for what they are worth - but when I think about it this way (and with the future of our Region and our Region's national impact in mind), it seems to make sense...
"I really don't see the advantages in playing Open. Even though our teams did very well I hope our teams choose to play club in order to get in 2 extra regional tournaments. We will just wait and try to face the big clubs in MAPL or the near by festival tournaments."
(1) I believe that a secondary but understood effect of the CR Open division was really to do just what you said you hope your teams will do - to encourage teams who do not compete in the larger, National tournaments (i.e., qualifiers, not MAPL or festivals) to remain in the Gold level, thus "weeding out" the teams who aren't striving to compete at the top levels nationally and subsequently giving the idea of "Open" within our Carolina Region a more truly "elite" status which would hopefully - in the next couple of seasons - attract more of the National-tournament-playing CR programs to re-visit the idea of playing in-region for even just a handful of weekends each year.
Further thoughts on that... If we look at club as a parallel structure to high school - where conference play represents CR tournaments and out-of-conference play represents out-of-region tournaments - we need to create great, truly competitive rivalries among the club programs within our state to allow more CR programs and players to be able to make an impact at the national level. The NC HS conferences that turn out the most champions are usually the conferences who began with maybe one great program and then a couple others followed suit and encouraged their kids to play club in the off-season to get better. Those conference powerhouses - in an effort to raise their level of play even more - began venturing out also to play the powerhouses from other conferences in weekend tri-matches to create even more competitive play within NCHS VB before the state tournament, but they still continue to compete within their conference - to show other teams what level they should be striving toward. I believe that a similar model could be followed and achieve success for CR club ball as well. The only way that our region can begin to have an even greater impact in volleyball nationally - which would have more college coaches looking at our kids potentially - is to raise the level of competition within our region. If HS VB teams almost exclusively played teams outside of their conference and no one in-conference, then what good would they actually be doing their own conference? Sure, they would be representing their conference when they made it a ways into the State play-offs, but they would be doing nothing to reach back and raise the level of play in their own conference. I feel the same analogy could be applied to our CR teams. It is great for clubs to go out and enter national tournaments (right now, very few of our CR programs actually compete at the national level), but if those strong programs truly believe in the product they put out and truly want to help raise the level of CR competitiveness nationally, then they should reach back play a little more "in-conference" to show everyone else what it takes and why they are able to compete at the national level. Plus, (and the smaller clubs will not like this), if the striving-to-be-elite clubs will enter a couple more regional tournaments to "show-off" their level of coaching and level of play, then more of the top-level local kids and families may be drawn to the better level of training and potential play which would help those clubs grow to make an even bigger splash in our region and eventually an even bigger splash nationally. No matter how much most club directors and coaches may hate it - the better the top CR programs become then the higher the bar is raised for everyone else and the more respect our region will get at the national level. I understand the desire and tendency to fight the elitist clubs because they seemingly "bully" others into doing what is best for them, but instead, why doesn't everyone else jump into their draft and let them pull us along?
"Our club doesn't go to the board meetings so we really don't have a reason to complain but I really don't understand the reasoning behind this (catering to a couple of clubs) or changing the formats last year to 'Logan's Run.'"
(2) You are awesome to acknowledge that if your club is not an active participant in the region meetings then you don't have a right to complain. Thank you for being honest about that. To that I say, unfortunately, that is the mindset of too many clubs and club directors. If more clubs would get involved - even if they just appoint a couple of gung-ho parents (we ALL have one or two of those in our club:) as club representatives charged with the responsibility of staying up-to-date and involved in the CR - then perhaps the CR would be one step further away from having the few govern the many. Right or wrong, it is the few who care and show their concern the most whose voices are heard.
"In prior seasons, the only teams staying late were the ones in the finals (Who would complain about that?). Last year the finals would some times be finished and there were still teams staying late fighting it out for 6th or 7th."
(3) You are so right on the fact that the final teams left at tournaments last year were often the three teams battling it out for 13th place. Of course, those people complained about the late night - but they also would have complained about not getting to play 3 or 4 matches. You are wrong, however, that championship match teams wouldn't complain about having to stay so late - many of them most definitely did. Think about it, in the 2011 season, only the teams in the semis and finals (or reffing them) were the ones staying late. However, due to the overwhelming volume of complaints registered that year regarding the lateness of the tournament end times, the region decided to look at adjusting the formats of the tournaments to try to get teams home earlier.
Additional thoughts on that... All-in-all, I love that the CR is trying to find a better way of doing things. Unfortunately, trial and error is the best way to reach a solution. I look at it with the mindset that at least the kids are still getting to play and learn while everyone searches and gives feedback on what will be our best format going forward.
I am sure there will be much disagreement with this post, and I look forward to hearing many opinions.
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Post by nobody on Dec 17, 2012 16:54:46 GMT -5
Thanks coach4life. Those are some great points and I don't disagree with any of them. I too look forward to seeing many more opinions. We support the CR in anything they want to do. We really don't mind being governed by the few. We probably wouldn't even speak up if we came to the meetings. I do appreciate your explanation of the creation of the Open Division. I'm not sure if there will ever be any right answers, all we can do is what we think is right for our clubs. Based on our area of the state, (population & economics) we have to play a more limited travel schedule and play more regional tournaments. So the open division would would not be in our best interest. The girls just want to play. They would like to play at the highest level but there are other out of region tournaments for that.
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Post by mizunoman on Dec 19, 2012 0:58:38 GMT -5
I agree with you, nobody. There are truly precious few areas in our state that can economically support large club dues/travel fees. I would encourage club directors to consider their potential clientele carefully when selecting the area for their club base and the amount they charge for dues and the amount of travel cost involved. I found this site to be very interesting and informative. It lists NC cities by avg income... zipatlas.com/us/nc/city-comparison/median-household-income.htm (Sorry, I couldnt figure out how to hyperlink for some reason.) A casual glance shows that many cities/towns surrounding the Raleigh and Charlotte areas are in that upper bracket. Figures...Raleigh, in particular, amazes me at its ability to support several larger, more expensive clubs with newer ones still popping up every year.
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Post by nobody on Dec 19, 2012 15:31:43 GMT -5
Thanks mizunoman. That site explains a lot when I see our town is not on the first 2 pages.
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Post by coach4life on Jan 20, 2013 0:23:49 GMT -5
I am curious as to everyone's views on the "Open" CR tournament last weekend. Personal opinion - they let too many teams in and they should have stuck with the 8-team pod format that was originally in the plan. That 6-team thing may have been ok except they also added a 7-team pod in there as well. People didn't like sitting so long either. It seems like folks just want to go into the day knowing the game plan from the get-go...we play, sit, ref, play, play, sit then play-offs. If we are wanting more teams to want to be involved/stay in this open division, we need to make it easier for them - chant with me now..."Four-team pools! Four-team pools!" I know the region is doing their best to work with things, and I love that they are trying to make some changes, but after seeing this past weekend play out..."Four-team pools!" Not trying to incite a riot...just making my point.
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Post by nobody on Jan 22, 2013 17:05:35 GMT -5
I think the region just needs to do away with the open division and go back to how it was in the past years. They could still divide the state into 2 regions in the lower divisions but let the top division (Gold or Platinum) be state wide and still play 2 tournaments per month...
Then one of the major clubs should start a power league with the top 16-18 year old teams in the state and play once per month. Limit it to 16 teams, have 2 pods of 8 with 4 team pools. After each tournament the bottom 2 teams in pod A move down and the top 2 in pod B move up. Everything is watered down this year. The best teams in the state aren't all playing in the open division. All you have to do is look at Monument City this past weekend. In 18's, 3 out of the top 4 teams were from NC but only one plays open. In 17's, 3 out of the top 4 teams were from NC but 2 play open. In 16's, the top 5 were from NC but 3 play open. That is 5 quality teams from this region that played very well this past weekend but doesn't compete in Open in the region. The power league tournaments could be on Sundays so it wouldn't interfere with the regional schedule. To keep 16 in the league and to keep 4 pools it would have to be mandatory to play but teams could also play on the Saturday regional tournaments if they want to. They wouldn't be forced not to play in one if they played in the other.
Just my opinion, I know it's not perfect but it is also not perfect when 2 teams show up at a club tournament, run through the tournament winning by huge scores and play each other in the finals. It's not fair to any team playing in that gym regardless of their skill level.
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Post by spiker on Jan 22, 2013 19:39:15 GMT -5
I see your point. In the 16's division in the East, all the top teams are playing in the Open Division but in the West there are 2 high-level teams playing in the "Gold" division that are obviously going to pummel everyone else all season long. I'm sure the other 11 teams in the West Gold division are excited about that. Well, at least there will likely be some tourneys where those teams will be at MAPL or whatever so it gives the others a chance.
It also looks like there are a couple strong teams that aren't playing in the CR tournaments at all this year?
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Post by mizunoman on Jan 22, 2013 23:32:28 GMT -5
1 comment @nobody: Monument is not necessarily the height of the talent pool; therefore, I would not equate a top-five finish there with Open-level caliber necessarily (even if just NC Open level), but I appreciate and understand your point. 1 question spiker: What clubs and what age-groups are you referring to that you believe are "strong" but not playing in the region? Just curious. I know for sure of one club that practically never plays within the region except for Quest and MAPL.
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Post by Admin on Jan 22, 2013 23:54:02 GMT -5
Then one of the major clubs should start a power league with the top 16-18 year old teams in the state and play once per month. Limit it to 16 teams, have 2 pods of 8 with 4 team pools. After each tournament the bottom 2 teams in pod A move down and the top 2 in pod B move up. Funny you mention this, nobody. I've actually heard some similar thoughts from a couple of club directors already...
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